Master Instigator removing caches???

Jimbo 2 · Veteran Member

Master Instigator removing caches???

Dragonfreys · Senior Member

What/who is provoking hiders into mass removal of caches?!? MI's caches are amongst the best in the province, and take a bit of planning to get to. We have enjoyed the adventures so far and were looking forward to going for the ones further a field as our team grows to be more mobile (i.e. our son starts to leave us in the dust). Is there an inevitable souring to the activity as people get it out of their system? This seeming trend is very disturbing, surely there is enough real estate in Manitoba that everyone can get along?

Jimbo 2 · Veteran Member

It does seem kinda strange....I have actually done one of his caches, and there wasn't anything wrong with it.

There seems to be a lot of debate as of late, about cache quality. Some people don't like micros, some don't like puzzle caches, etc. This shouldn't be a problem though because the cache listings indicate the size/type of cache, as well as who placed it.

If you don't like micros, don't look for them! If you decide to look for them, don't complain about them.

Although micros aren't my favorite, I still look for them if I'm going to be in the area. I've never posted a negative comment about any cache I've found, I'm just happy people are putting them out there.

A couple of my caches have netted the odd negative comment-FTF too cheap looking, didn't like area cache was in....I'm not going to let that deter me though.

I hope this archiving and removing caches isn't becoming a trend.....

junglehair · Senior Member

Oh man, I really hate to see that happen. M.I. has some really great caches out there and I have fond memories from most of the ones I found. Wacko Willy's Wicked Hoard was my 800th find and I thought it was so clever I created a similar cache to that in New York. In fact, when I moved away from there, that cache was the first one someone wanted to adopt. My mom and I got covered in Woodticks when going for Last of the Manitoba Ents, but it was all worth it for a look at that giant tree. I love big old trees like that and as such, it's still one of my favourite caches around here. Even Go Fly A Kite, which was muggled and archived a while ago now, has great memories associated with it. One of the first times I took geo_kitten out caching we did that cache. Her and her older brother had a great time flying the kites afterwards. We need more caches like that, not less!

FoodNinja · Veteran Member

this isnt cool man,,,, lets just keep out thoughts to ourselves as finders, with out hiders we would be with out sport.

JayPeg · Veteran Member

This is a trend that is not hurting the person with the big gob, it affects those starting cacheing and those the enjoy the hobby. M.I.s caches are the kind that I would introduce to a new cacher and explain that this is why caching is fun.

I personally don't have that many caches out there and those I do have are simple. For every 1 complaint I have at least 20 that enjoyed the find. With hiders like M.I., they inspire and get the creative juices flowing for some new caches. I have a few planned for the near future that I would consider creative and original. If someone does not like them...TOO BAD!!

Remember people, this is a hobby and nobody is getting paid to hide or find caches. Without Hiders there won't be any finds!!!!

Kabuthunk · Veteran Member

Yeah, this threw me off as well. I was just poking around previous finds, seeing who found 'em after me, and noticed 'micro park cache' was disabled.

What the heck... I thought it was a nice cache. Same with 'I am the walrus'... I loved the placement of that one. And it was an excellent hike to get there. Definitely caches I'd use to introduce new people to geocaching with.

Although, given his "disabling" message, I'm not sure what he's complaining about. Looking at the 'newest in Manitoba', most are either set to "small" size or "regular" size.
Heck... 95% of any recent micros are either Skaven's 'conquista del mundo' series, and the 'mayor of winnipeg' series... which are just that... series-caches. Thusly, they're micros for a reason (sorta).

I can understand not liking micros. Looking for a micro in a forest *coughmayorofwinnipegstbonifacecough* doesn't exactly fill me with joy, but some people like micros, and I knew what I was getting into when I went in search of it (well... except for the 'massive pile of branches' aspect). And I'll continue to go for these micros when I'm up for a hunt (the fact that it was cold and dark didn't help my search of that aformentioned cache :P ). If it's still there in spring (assuming it isn't winter friendly), I'll go after it again... because I like caches in a forest in general. Or I'll go after it once it's found again.

So yeah... not sure why he's archiving all of his. It's too bad... there were a number of his that I had my eye on to go after when I had more time :{

Definitely not a cool trend to be seeing.

MHz · Veteran Member

Some of MI's caches are my most memorable as well. We slogged down 14km of ATV trails through the mud, mosquitoes and then rain with Brains, Brawn and Beauty and didn't even finish the multi! First and only time I've been to Nopiming prov. Park. I was really annoyed that day as being totally soaked and covered in mud and mosquito bites but would I slog through the elements to solve puzzles like that again? You bet! In a heart beat! I will never forget that day! Too bad Nopiming is just too far away for me to get time to visit it more.

I beleive I've done all of MI's caches except for Go Fly a Kite and Jukebox as both were muggled before I could get to them. I've never ever been disappointed with any of his caches.

First PBD then MI! I really don't like this trend! It's been a very sad couple of month.

MHz

-- Edited by MHz at 11:51, 2006-11-30

polarbeardiggers · Veteran Member

"I am in the process of removing all of my cache containers. It is apparent that original interesting caches are frowned upon so I am clearing space for more ( bleeping ) micro's."this is the quote on every cache listing owned by MI,newly archived, MI,a long standing cacher in the manitoba community,very adventurous, and creative cacher in his own right,multi's that some could never complete,scattered throughout the town and country,his caches,you knew had the quality of heavy thinking,this man started the MBGA with help and support from manitoba cachers alike,does this sound like a person that would get bent out of shape over one persons opinion,or could this be the same attack by the same group of people that persuaded me to give up on all hopes of enjoying such a great fun outdoor game.behind the doors of scheming,running down cache hides,like they had control over geocaching.com.I have had great competitive battles with MI,over the last two years,and had the pleasure of caching with him,a very honest and creative thinker,one who has helped me stay in the game,and convinced me not to take a negative remark to heart,wether or not the person represents a group of cachers.I have adopted a new policy,but taken it to a newly extreme level,but a year ago a group of three cachers just newly started,adopted a new policy for logging any of their new caches,that any negative feed back would be deleted,I was very troubled by this,especially from new cachers, where did they encounter such troubled feed back from before to openly list their caches with such a harsh comment,my new policy will not be openly made but the results will be more severe,as a hider who has spent alot of money and time placing caches for the open public to enjoy has no room or patience for grumpy crass cache logs.I personally aplaud MI's stand,and we all will miss his contributions he has made to the manitoba caching community,perhaps time will heal his wounds too,MERRY CHRISTMAS TO THE MI FAMILY,yours truely,the POLARBEARDIGGERS.

MHz · Veteran Member

MI's alter ego gumpy has deleted all of their cache finds.

There really is something seriously wrong here but I'm at a complete loss to understand what it is.

I've had trouble in the past where I thought keeping one of my caches just wasn't worth the effort but I never thought of yanking it. The furthest thought I got to was replacing it so it's a typical traditional cache. (Boy, I've had those thoughts many times in the past year about that cache). I've had a few nasty negative private e-mails about it from various cachers but the Geo-Kitchen Cache still exists. I tell myself it's unique and the majority of the cachers who find it enjoy it for it's uniqueness.

I think this is another one of those instances where I need to be hit over the head to understand what's going on!

MHz

Kabuthunk · Veteran Member

Deleting all their finds too?!? Man, what the heck??? I mean... wanting to leave the hobby is one thing... but actually taking the effort to go back and erase any history that you've ever been here is another. What, the mafia leaning on him or something?

junglehair · Senior Member

MHz wrote:

I've had trouble in the past where I thought keeping one of my caches just wasn't worth the effort but I never thought of yanking it. The furthest thought I got to was replacing it so it's a typical traditional cache.

If you do that, people who had to find it the hard way will complain that you've made it too easy now for the rest of them. You just can't win.

I think people just like to complain sometimes. The key is to not take it personally. We all have caches that we like and we all have caches that we dislike. I can honestly say that of the 1800+ finds I have, there is only one that I can think of that I felt needed to be removed, or at least have the description changed to have it make sense. It was a hide in Rochester, where the owner tried to make very difficult, but really all he did was make it so vague that it was impossible to tell what you needed to do.

I can relate to Kabuthunk's frustration at Mayor of Winnipeg - St. Boniface since I spent a great deal of time looking for that micro in the woods. That doesn't mean I think he should pull that cache though. I actually very much enjoyed going after the Mayor of Winnipeg series of caches.

I also don't believe that the MBGA is out there trying to be the cache police as PBD is implying. If individual members of the Executive are making comments, it's based on their personal beliefs, not with the support of the MBGA.

They are, however, trying to educate people on how to place quality caches. For example, why put a micro where an ammo can could easily go? Or that used peanut butter jars can attract wildlife muggles, so it's better to use a container that has never been used to store food.

junglehair · Senior Member

polarbeardiggers wrote:

as a hider who has spent alot of money and time placing caches for the open public to enjoy has no room or patience for grumpy crass cache logs.

I find this interesting PBD since I actually took offence to some of the logs you posted on the caches my mom and I placed up near Gimli. For example, when you referred to our cache "What's the Point" as "What's the Point of Looking". I never considered deleting your log though. I just chalked it up to having a different sense of humour than I.

Perhaps we all need to consider when we are writing our logs, how it might sound to the person who, as PBD said, has spent a lot of time and money to place that cache there. As has been mentioned several times already - without the hiders, there would be nothing for us to find.

Kabuthunk · Veteran Member

I think what we need is a giant "how to place caches" kinda learning session, or at least page on the board. I'm sure I myself would learn a lot from it, as would others (see my most recent rant... other topic).

Definitely, the micro-in-forest can be frustrating, but definitely shouldn't be removed for it. People will rant about it. I know I did. But people will rant about anything. If they've had a hard day... they'll need to find the smallest detail to yell about, just so they can vent. It's human nature (I think). Because one person's mad doesn't mean you should remove the fun from everyone else.

Note: I'd like to take this opportunity to apologize if anyone's been offended or irritated with my recent rants. Lotsa personal stuff going on... nerves have been getting a little frazzled lately. If anyone would like me to either modify anything I've written anywhere, or apologize at any point, please don't hesitate to ask, I would be glad to oblige.

junglehair · Senior Member

Kabuthunk wrote:

I think what we need is a giant "how to place caches" kinda learning session, or at least page on the board. I'm sure I myself would learn a lot from it, as would others (see my most recent rant... other topic).

Check out the Geocacher University site: http://www.geocacher-u.com/ It has some great information for hiding and finding caches. I agree it would be nice to compile a list here of the do's and don'ts for hiding a cache.

Kabuthunk · Veteran Member

Oohh, that site is quite the informative. Well... on the plus side, the cache that I'm working on pretty well fits the bill for the 'good' guidelines. I'm pretty sure I fall into the "check the coordinates a dozen times, and spend a month building the cache to fit the area" type of hider :P

But... back to the point of the topic. Has anyone heard from Master Instigator to find out what happened?

Master Instigator · Member

I just want to clarify what happened so that the rumors don't get out of hand. I have now been away from Geocaching for quite some time now, and lets just say that it is on a low priority list. The long story short was I created a new cache that you would need to play a video game (that was modified for geocaching) in order to get the co-ordinates for the cache at the end. I had placed it Nov.7th and it took about 3 to 4 days to get the no because I wanted to send the game file by email. I had to go to the trouble of placing another cache that contained the cd's of the game to comply in order to get another email after it was all done that the cache does not meet new cache placement policies that are in effect but haven't been updated to the Geocaching site. I had made the decision prior to the refusal that if eventually the cache was turned down I would give it up. As for the shot at micros, it was solely for the fact that they are the most boring, lame and cheapest form of cache placements. (Someone should have Wal-Mart stop giving film canisters out) I think that if you want to make an interesting cache you have to lie and submit it as a micro and after its published go and re-edit the entire page to reflect exactly how you wanted it because unique is wrong. And as for the deletion of all my finds, when I make a decision it's final not wishy-washy. The deletion confirmed it because I cannot undo it. When I finish adopting the two, and only two caches I will cut off all caching ties and prevent getting any further messages by redirecting them to the poor sole who gets thousands of email daily at someone@hotmail.com Think of me what you will but I have finished with caching, had a blast not all good, but not all bad like it should be and I am ready to find something else I can wrap my mind around. M.I. over and out.

Dragonfreys · Senior Member

Actually, I've seen that very challenge with a unique puzzle cache in North Dakota where the guy has a very cool game that you need play in order to get the coordinates. They wouldn't let him publish it without providing another way of solving the puzzle (as some people wouldn't be able to potentially run the software, yada yada) so he put out an alternative method using some advanced calculus for people who didn't want to run the software.

Sounds like frustration to me and I hope it's not a decision you will come to regret down the road. We've enjoyed reading the adventures of Gumpy and your participation has added much to the Manitoba geocaching landscape. There is practically a line up of people hoping to tackle Untouchable before it is gone. I can't believe you are ready to let Wacko Willy fade into the forest, it is a Manitoba Must Do by most accounts.

I guess the shocking thing for me is that someone who drove all the way up to Kississing Lake and paddled 40 km to end up with two DNFs and posted a positive experience about the ordeal is ready to pack things in after a disagreement with a cache reviewer. If can happen to someone who seemed that passionate about geocaching, then it can happen to any of us.

All the best in your next hobby. It was a pleasure knowing you while you were here.

Dragonfreys

junglehair · Senior Member

Well, thanks for the explanation M.I. It's a shame, but I know of others that are also fed up with the game being so bogged down with rules. It certainly can be frustrating when you go to all the trouble of setting up a cache only to have it denied by the cache reviewer. Especially one as complex as the one you described. Thanks for all the great caches you provided in the past, and best wishes for the future.

slippery_1 · Senior Member

Well I am relativly new to this, and feel still very positively about this activity. I have found one of your caches and regardless it was fun going after someones cache I felt was an icon to this activity we have come to enjoy.

You are always mentioned very fondly whenever I speak with others in this province and your caches seem a challenge whenever anyone goes for them.

Regardless, your participation will be sadly missed...I can say this is very tragic news to those of us participating. I know you say thats it, adios, well I haven't seem you with the truck packed and rolling out of town, so I hope you might reconcider and hit the odd cache while you are still here. Heck I bet PBD even missed me, thats why he keeps coming back..

Ask anyone...once ya get to know me is to luv me....

1queenand4jokers · Senior Member

Loved your caches and the marvelous memories MI! Loved cracking the Gump/Master Instigator disguise. Loved meeting you and your wife and your son. Do you have another yet? I do appreciate that you started an Association - the best part (my opinion) being the well organized events and the MBGA coin/logo created.

I've noticed that once I've met other cachers face to face and really think of them as real beings with feelings and personal lives, I don't find it as easy to criticize them.

It is a lot of work to keep up caches (and we appreciate when others add logsheets or dry out a container for us) but I think as a family we'll hang in with the game. I think that if anyone has concerns about any of (our) caches or others it is best to keep it private and email directly to the cacher. This is a game where I tell my kids we all win.

Sorry to see you go and hope to see you return when your son (s) feels the sneaky urge to find hidden treasures (won't be long).

TurdleEggs · Senior Member

The brightest flame burns quickest.

junglehair · Senior Member

RE: Master Instigator removing caches???

MHz · Veteran Member

Thanks MI for taking the time to explain better what was going on. Perhaps your cache was the one that my new cache called De Cypher Cache was in conflict with until I moved mine which I was happy to do.

I wish you, CherryPie and Gumpy Jr. the very best and good luck with your future endevours. Gord and I will never forget the adventures we had finding your caches. Thanks for all you've done! MHz

Lizardo · Senior Member

UGH. I feel horrible about this. But, I recognize that Daniel is a grown man and very capable of making his own decisions. I want to say that I thoroghly enjoyed the 6 M.I. finds I was able to make, and am sad that I will not have the opportunity to see others.

Thank you for your considerable time and efforts in contributing to setting up the MBGA and promoting caching in the media. I wish you well in whatever activities you and your family pursue in the future.

Are you making plans to transfer responsibility of the moderating of these forums to one of the committee members? You can let Dani or myself know at your convenience.

Thank you, M.I. I wish I had the chance to know you better, I imagine I could have learned a thing or two.

Good luck.

TheStuntman · Senior Member

There's not much that I can say that hasn't already been said.

First thing that comes to mind is that I'm losing one of my hero's. But I must seperate the geocaching character from the man.

When I first started Master Instagator was a genius. The ideas conjured up in his mind gave me chills. I loved never truely knowing what to expect while looking for one of his caches. It was his caches along with Peter's unique styes that made me think about the caches I placed.

Gumpy, the Jeckel and Hyde alter ego, was a fierce competitor. He showed me that this pastime/hobby could be a sport. You had to be on I mean you needed to have a game face when it came time to go for the FTF, day or night.

Finally the man, Daniel. I made a friend in this silly game. I respect his dicision to step away from something that once ment quite a lot to him. I was able to get to know him a bit and I'm hoping to continue that friendship.

I myself have seen this game go from an adventure to a numbers game. How many caches do you really remember? I know that M.I's will be long remembered.

I know this is sounding like a eulogy. but this really is a loss.

I will miss the characters.

mustash · Member

M.I.

Thanks a million for the likes of "Manitoba Minutae", "Wacko Willy's ...", "Brains, Brawn and Beauty", and "Untouchable". The creativity and physical effort that you put in to make them are very much appreciated.

All the best to you and your family.

Whenever I see a new username pop up in a log I'll be hoping it's you sneaking back into the game.

Cheers

ohmic · Member

junglehair wrote:

However, by archiving all your existing caches, you are not really hurting geocaching.com - the ones that you are annoyed with. Instead, you are taking something special away from the cachers of Manitoba - the people who obviously have a great deal of respect and admiration for you. Please consider letting others keep that legacy alive for you.

Even though I never met M.I. I find it unfortunate that new geocachers like myself will not have the chance to experience the great caches put out by or even the numerous ones placed by PBD for that matter. It is true that the people that will be affected the most are the new ones, the ones that are just getting into the game. Perhaps I haven't done enough geocaching but I don't try to rate caches or cachers. I just enjoy getting outside looking for those little containers, small or big, easy or challenging, and to me this is the essence of this activity. Going for the hunt is half the fun of finding the cache. Removing them only penalizes participants. Adoptions would have been a better alternative in my opinion as it would be a separation from the game by the cacher without a loss to the eager new participants.

Hope to see some of those caches come back. I heard so much about them!